Message no

Message no. 93
Posted by Dr. Suellyn Winkle on Monday, February 3, 2003 2:35pm
Subject Questions for Class Discussion

Questions for Class Discussion:

1.     Describe the persona of the writer of the letter from

Chief Seattle to President Pierce.  Supply examples from

the text that demonstrate your ideas.

2.     Consider N. Scott Momaday’s final image of his

grandmother (150). What does her image suggest?  What

does this image illustrate about his relationship with

his grandmother?

3.     Compare and contrast the speakers and their concerns

in Seattle’s letter and Momaday’s personal narrative.

What is significant about their likenesses?  What is

significant about their differences?

Message no. 94[Branch from no. 93]
Posted by MARK DEVALIANT on Monday, February 3, 2003 3:13pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1. I think Chief Seattle is bitter and resigned. He has

seen the great nations of the American Indian wax and

wane and although he sees the rise of the white man as

just another phase, "The whites, too, shall pass-perhaps

sooner than other tribes", it is unsavoury to him.

 Seattle and his people seem to have had a clearer

vision of our connection to the Earth. They lived as one

with the planet rather than raping, pillaging and

plowing under. "All things are connected.  Whatever

befalls the earth befalls the sons of the earth."

But he is resigned to his fate. He cares little about

where he resides for the remainder of his life (a

reservation as it turns out) and believes that his

remaining years will be few. He seems to fear for the

fate of the earth, "The earth is not his brother, but

his enemy...", but also gives the impression that this

too shall pass, and the world will renew itself.

 Underlying all is his resentment of the white man and

his disdain. His sarcasm shows his contempt and also his

insight. By making self deprecating remarks ("...because

I am savage and do not understand...") he clearly

illustrates that white man just doesn't understand.

"...the end of living and the beginning of survival..."

When we ruin this planet, where will we go?

2. The final image of Momaday's grandmother stands, to

me,  as a monumental representation of the whole

culture, and its fall, that she had lived. The loss of

everything that she had known, singing a lament to all

that was, even her language was sad. Even that was to be

lost, "I do not speak Kiowa...", but it was clear that

she was not rejoicing.

This all leads one to believe that the line ended with

Momaday's grandmother. That, in time, we would know no

more about the Great Plains Indians than we do about

Paleolithic man. Just a few paintings on a cave wall and

some stone tools. Not much of a legacy.

3. Not wanting to linger too long on Plato but the

distinct writing styles of Seattle and Momaday could be

seen thus: Seattle is in the light (of his tribal way of

life) looking into the darkness (of white man's

encroachment). Momaday is just the opposite, looking

from the dark for just a hint of what was there during

the light. Both are blinded by their realizations, both

regret the changes.

Seattle remembers the hey day of his tribe and wishes

they had not passed. Momaday lives in the world that

Seattle rejected but looks back, through his heritage in

the hopes of catching a glimpse of what it was like.

What must it have been like to be at one with nature?

Ironic that this is written on something so unnatural as

a computer. I think Momaday's quest was too little too

late. It seems he didn't heed his grandmother when he

had the opportunity.

Regardless of their standpoint, they both highlight the

great loss that occurred when we lost the Native

American way of life.

Message no. 95[Branch from no. 93]
Posted by JOSHUA DANIEL COWAN on Tuesday, February 4, 2003 3:26am
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion- HOW...do you do?

  1.  The persona of the writer in Chief Seattle's

letter is that of one who respects the land as a

brother.  He knows it and breathes it.  The earth is his

partner, and yet he knows that soon his companion will

no longer be his, nor will it be distinguishable from

the brother he knew so well when he was young.  His

language is not that of a savage, but the fact that he

calls himself as such only puts more force behind what

he is saying.

  2.  The image suggests that there seems to have been

something lost in the generations in between.  An

understanding of sorrow and of spirituality.  He cannot

understand what she is saying, yet he can hear the

sadness in her voice, "...something that is, and is not,

like urgency..."  The image mirrors the relationship

between the two, as she is somewhat shrouded in darkness

to him.  He cannot totally fathom her or her experience.

 He knows  their history, and where her life coincides

with that history, but he can only sense the sorrow, the

suffering, the joy, she would have felt in her lifetime.

  3.  Both Momaday's and Seattle's writings have the

same concerns- that the author is not understanding

another's beliefs and/or views.  But while Momaday is

trying to understand another- his grandmother and his

people, Seattle is trying to get another to understand

him- by stating that he doesn't understand the white

man's dreams and view of the world.

-Garbage answers, I know, but it's three o'clock in the

morning> and if I don't do them now, they'll probably

never get done, so...

Message no. 96[Branch from no. 93]
Posted by NATALIE A PETERS on Tuesday, February 4, 2003 3:20pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1. Describe the persona of the writer of the letter from

Chief Seattle to President Pierce.  Supply examples from

the text that demonstrate your ideas.

The persona in Chief Seattle’s Letter to President

Pierce speaks a harsh reality. His words are true, real

and mostly overlooked. Chief Seattle seems to be a man

of dignity in his own ways, obviously a Chief of some

native tribe. His harsh ways of looking at the white

man, begin with the first sentence: “We know that the

white man does not understand our ways.” From the

starting point, Chief Seattle positions himself opposing

the white man. This shows that he is not scared or

afraid to speak his mind and about what he thinks is

right. But yet, Chief Seattle’s views are not one-sided;

he consistently views himself and his people as

“savages” and calls them “red men.” He is not scared to

dig at the white man’s ways of living, and tells him

straight up, “Continue to contaminate your bed, and you

will one night suffocate in your own waste.” He speaks

wisdom in saying “Whatever happens to the beasts also

happens to man. All things are connected. Whatever

befalls the earth befalls the sons of the earth.”

2. Consider N. Scott Momaday’s final image of his

grandmother (180). What does her image suggest?  What

does this image illustrate about his relationship with

his grandmother?

Momaday’s final image of his grandmother praying

represents her Kiowa culture coming to its long awaited

end. The grandmother portrays this legacy of her culture

because she had lived through it, and was living proof

of its closing chapters. The beauty of this woman

praying, half naked, lit by the kerosene lamp symbolizes

the beauty of the land her people once so freely roamed.

The age on her person tragically symbolizes the age on

this land which soon will only whisper the remains of a

vanished culture.

The author “[Does] not speak Kiowa, and [I] never

understood her prayers,” but there was a connection

between grandmother and grandson. By the way she spoke,

the pitch, the intensity, he could understand the

message she was attempting to communicate. The

grandmother was the end of a family, a culture, that no

one would ever be able join or know much about.

3. Compare and contrast the speakers and their concerns

in Seattle’s letter and Momaday’s personal narrative.

What is significant about their likenesses?  What is

significant about their differences?

Seattle can be compared to Plato, in the fact he is

direct, to the point and does not beat around the bush.

He tells you how it is and how it is going to be and how

he wants it. He talks directly to President Pierce, not

waiting around on his subordinates. Seattle talks from

more of a pessimistic viewpoint, talking about his

people’s problems, while Momaday talks about the beauty

of the culture and people, in more of an optimistic

viewpoint. Momaday floats around, not really having an

end or a specific point. Both authors are speaking of

the same thing, an end to their culture and what they

see happening.

Message no. 97[Branch from no. 93]
Posted by DANIEL T TOTEV on Tuesday, February 4, 2003 3:50pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1.      The persona of the writer of the letter from Chief

Seattle to President Pierce belongs to a culture quite

different from the white man’s culture. His letter is a

typical example of a cultural clash: this is a conflict

between contrary values. Native American culture centers

on the belief that humans must live in peace and harmony

with the natural world. This peace and harmony cannot be

found in the new world: “there is no quiet place in the

white man’s cities.” Native American religions are

strongly connected to any creature their “brother” the

Earth offers: they are fond of “the rustle of insect’s

wings” and they see their dependence on the beasts: “if

all the beasts were gone, men would die from great

loneliness of spirit, for whatever happens to the beast

also happens to man.” The persona is very spiritual and

unlikely to give up his customs and rituals for the

noisy and lifeless white man’s cities.

According to Native Americans, the earth has endless

resources. Probably this was true before the Europeans

came to North America to kill animals and cut forests

without letting the earth replenish her reserves. Here,

we have two worldviews. The Native American one sees the

land is the source of all substance, it cannot be owned

and it must be treated with great respect, and the white

man’s view sees land as a harsh “enemy” that must be

conquered, divided and owned. The resources are abundant

for small groups of indigenous tribes who respect the

natural world and whose aim is not to increase

population and expand territories but to preserve their

ecosystem. However, these resources are limited for the

ceaseless flow of immigrants who mine, excavate, build

roads and cities and industrialize the North Continent

as they deplete natural reserves at ever-increasing

rate. The persona is angry about this irresponsible

overuse and he wonders “what he [the white man]

describes to his children”: what future he promises to

his children. Then the persona’s ominous prophecy comes:

“continue to contaminate your bed, and you will one

night suffocate in your own waste.”

Actually, although this letter was written in 1855, it

is still fashionable and probably would have the same

effect on President Bush and today’s America. We can

paraphrase the latter quotation to something like this:

Drive your SUVs with 300 and more horse power which you

will never need because of speed limits and drive huge

luxury five-seats cars in which 90% of the time its only

you in the car, and be negligent and careless of whether

your children will be able to enjoy the same environment

you did. Europeans’ attitude about how big and powerful

a car should be is quite different than the American.

The fact that gas in Europe is twice the price in

America is the main cause for Europeans to buy

comparatively small cars with less powerful but most

fuel-efficient engines. Can we do something to stop the

ever-increasing rate of using up our resources? I think

yes.

2. Although Momaday does not speak Kiowa and does not

understand his grandmother’s prayers, he still can sense

the grief and anguish she experienced: “there was

something inherently sad in the sound, some merest

hesitation upon the syllables of sorrow” (Momaday 180).

Her nonverbal expression scared Momaday. He was

frightened by her tone’s “high and descending pitch,

exhausting her breath to silence.” He runs away from the

truth: he doesn't want to see his grandmother anymore.

First, Momaday thinks it is better not to see his

grandmother again and he refuses to learn more about her

gruesome memories. But after her death, he symbolizes

her memories as a creature that “filled the moon like a

fossil” (Momaday 181). This fossil will stay there

forever to be discovered by next generations. The

history is there. It cannot be changed and it might be

painful to hear for some people, but it is essential for

next generations not to make the same mistakes.

3. Native American population of 10 million that lived

north of Mexico when Columbus came was reduced to less

than a million in 1800. Huge numbers of Indians died

from diseases introduced by the whites. Behind the

European invasion of North America, behind their

massacre of Indians, and their deception was the drive

based on private property. But in conditions of scarcity

and competition, this human need for more space was

transformed into the murder of human beings.

Native Americans were forbidden from practicing their

religions and conversion to Christianity was attempted.

Many were also forbidden to speak their own language,

and their children were sent to schools where they could

learn only English. Tribes had signed treaty after

treaty with Europeans only to see each one broken by the

white man with the result that Native American families

were pushed further away from their ancestral lands. The

vast herds of buffalo numbering 60 million in the

mid-ninetieth century were less than 200 in 1883. For

the white mand, there was more in killing buffalos than

thrill and trophies; it was a deliberate policy to

destroy the major food supply for native people.

Both Momaday and Seattle are aware of their parents and

grandparents’ history. The difference is that Momaday is

more an observer, while Seattle is still part of his

culture. While Momaday literally sees “the scars of old

and cherished enmities” on the Kiowas’ faces, Seattle

believes that his offspring will figuratively carry

these scars in the future. Seattle is more assertive

With his essay he implies question usch as: Who is a

"savage"? Tracing back history, who in fact is more

primitve?

Message no. 98[Branch from no. 93]
Posted by KELLY ANNE PURCELL on Tuesday, February 4, 2003 4:52pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1. Describe the persona of the writer of the letter from

Chief Seattle to President Pierce.  Supply examples from

the text that demonstrate your ideas.

Since the persona is the origin of the story, or a mask

woven to present the author’s ideas, I believe the

persona in Chief Seattle’s, “Letter to President Pierce,

1855,” is the idea of the greed and lack of respect for

symbiotic relationships that the invading white colonies

had shown.  Chief Seattle states, “The earth is not his

brother, but his enemy, and when he has conquered it, he

moves on.” (page 641)  Using imagery, he made this

statement clear when he presented ideas of all of the

buffalo being slaughtered and all of the wild horses

being tamed.  This is a letter describing the sadness of

the Indian people watching the white man, with their

indifferent regard for other beings, take all of the

resources of their life and culture away.

I think this essay has a futuristically, uncanny

relation to this class, as Seattle mentions, “…the view

of the ripe hills blotted by talking wires…”  (page 642)

 The first picture to pop into my head was that of

telephone poles and lines.  Were it not for these lines,

there would be no internet!

2. Consider N. Scott Momaday’s final image of his

grandmother (150). What does her image suggest?  What

does this image illustrate about his relationship with

his grandmother?

Her image suggests the idea of a people and their dying

culture.  I see a wise, natural woman who was praying

for hope, love, and rebirth.  She had seen many years

and many changes, but the years only added to her

beauty.  She was still physically beautiful in her old

age, with long, dark hair and brown skin.  Momaday

wrote, “The last time I saw her she prayed standing by

the side of her bed at night, naked to the waist, the

light of a kerosene lamp moving upon her dark skin.”

(page 180)  Her literal image suggests interwoven

customs.  When Momaday stated that he knew that this

would be the last time he saw her, it gave me the

picture of something framed for all time.  It gave me

the feeling of looking down a long corridor; the kind

that seem to never end.  Momaday obviously loved his

grandmother and held her in high regard.  He respected

and appreciated her ways.  Surely she made a huge impact

on his life.

3. Compare and contrast the speakers and their concerns

in Seattle’s letter and Momaday’s personal narrative.

What is significant about their likenesses?  What is

significant about their differences?

The speaker in Chief Seattle is very angry and

righteous.  He contrasts his feelings in trying to

provide some kind of enlightenment while expressing his

disgust for what the white man was doing.  It is a

to-the point letter, very true and straightforward,

although I don’t think his sarcasm got him very far.  I

am sure this letter would have only angered President

Pierce.  Seattle has a masculine voice and a single

point of view.  He seems to be more absorbed in his

anger than in working or compromising to remedy the

problem.  Momaday realizes that his races customs had

been basically obliterated, but he was more concerned

with accepting the world he was in and integrating his

heritage with the newly formed customs of the new time.

He saw hope and despair in his grandmother.  His writing

was more personal than Seattle’s, which led me to

empathize on a more personal level.  Their likenesses in

interest tie the stories together and their differences

result on the impact of the essays.

Message no. 99[Branch from no. 93]
Posted by SELENA EDWARDS RIESS on Tuesday, February 4, 2003 6:51pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1)  The persona of the writer of the letter from Chief

Seattle to President Pearce is one of anger at the white

man.  Chief Seattle points out that the "red man" (641)

is losing his culture and way of life to the white man's

greed and accuses him of being "a stranger who comes…and

takes from the land whatever he needs" (641).  The white

man is reminded that "all things are connected" (641),

that "whatever befalls the earth befalls the sons of the

earth" (641), and that "the whites, too, shall pass"

(641).  The land's natural beauty and inhabitants have

disappeared due to the white man's inconsideration,

"…where is the thicket? Gone.  Where is the eagle?

Gone" (642).  In essence, the angry words almost

describe the white man as being the savage, "the earth

is not his brother, but his enemy, and when he has

conquered it, he moves on" (641), and not the "red man"

(641) after all.

2)  The image of N. Scott Momaday's grandmother suggest

the passing of a generation and of a culture that is

pertinent to Momaday's family's history, "she made long,

rambling prayers…having seen many things…so exclusive

were they of all mere custom and company" (180). Momaday

remembers his grandmother fondly, "I like to think of

her as a child" (177) and seems to have been close to

her while growing up.  He describes earlier memories of

his grandmother's house as "full of sound" (180) with

the summers "full of excitement and reunion" (180). With

the passing of the grandmother he loved, Momaday has

been filled with sadness over losing such a wonderful

lady and a part of his ancestry, "there is a funeral

silence in the rooms, the endless wake of some final

word" (181).

3)  Chief Seattle expresses anger and sarcasm toward the

white man for coming and taking what belonged to the

Indians and forcing the white man’s laws on them.  He

feels that the white man has no respect for the things

given to us with earth’s nature and the Indian’s

practiced customs within their tribe.  In contrast,

Momaday focuses more on the strength the Kiowas

possessed, mentioning that they were the last culture to

“evolve to North America” (178).  He tells of their

practices and how they were continued even after

surrendering to the soldiers.

Both speakers are proud of their heritage and are

saddened to see this integral part of history slowly

disappear because of the white man’s ways.  The

difference between the two is that Chief Seattle was

unaccepting of the white man; whereas, Momaday had

learned to accept the white man as well as adapt to his

ways.

Message no. 100[Branch from no. 93]
Posted by MELISSA M RIVELL on Tuesday, February 4, 2003 9:32pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

Questions for Class Discussion:

1.     Describe the persona of the writer of the letter from

Chief Seattle to President Pierce.  Supply examples from

the text that demonstrate your ideas.

The persona in this letter is Chief Seattle, a Native

American in 1855. He has a spiritual, mystic air to him.

He makes statements such as "All things are connected.

Whatever befalls the earth befalls the sons of the

earth"(641). He seems old and wise as he predicts the

white man's destruction of the earth. He employs much

sarcasm in his letter. He repeatedly refers to himself

as "a savage" who "does not understand".

2.     Consider N. Scott Momaday’s final image of his

grandmother (180). What does her image suggest?  What

does this image illustrate about his relationship with

his grandmother?

Momaday describes his grandmother the last time he sees

her: "The last time I saw her she prayed standing up by

the side of her bed at night, naked to the waist, the

light of a kerosene lamp moving upon her dark skin. Her

long black hair, always drawn and braided in the day,

lay upon her shoulders and against her breasts like a

shawl...Transported so in the dancing light among the

shadows of her room, she seeemd beyond the reach of

time"(180). This image paints a truly mournful but also

peaceful picture. The grandmother prays, but Momaday

does not know what she says. He and she have the barrier

of language, the separation of experiences. Despite all

of this, he knows the story of her people. He tells the

story of the Kiowas, shares their journey into exhile.

Due to her funeral, he experiences some of her sadness

while he is at Rainy Mountain. I get the impression that

his and his grandma's relationship was not too close,

but he does have memories of her that he describes in

this piece. He knows a lot about her and her tribe's

past. He understands her hardships even though he has

not lived through as much as she has.

3.     Compare and contrast the speakers and their concerns

in Seattle’s letter and Momaday’s personal narrative.

What is significant about their likenesses?  What is

significant about their differences?

Seattle's letter was written while the Americans were

taking over the Native Americans' lands and Momaday's

piece was written relatively recently after the Native

Americans had basically lost everything. Seattle's

letter predicts the future that Momaday lives in.

Seattle's letter seems like a letter of warning to

people on earth that the earth will be destroyed if the

land continues to be exploited. Momaday's piece reveals

the tragedy of the Kiowas' journey into reservations.

Both authors give their speakers a respect for nature.

Seattle wants to save earth from exploitation while

Momaday describes the beauty of Rainy Mountain and the

area around it. Seattle's concerns are specifically

pointed out in the letter itself, but I am not too sure

what Momaday's concerns are in his piece. Both writings

were depressing. It is really sad how we treated the

Native Americans and how we still continue to exploit

the land.

Message no. 101[Branch from no. 93]
Posted by ANNE C BAATSTAD on Tuesday, February 4, 2003 10:03pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1.  The persona of the letter-writer in Chef Seattle's

"Letter to President Pierce" was, like we said in class,

very sarcastic, hopeless and maybe a little bitter. The

sarcasm is obvious in the first paragraph in which the

speaker says "...perhaps it is because the red man is a

savage ad does not understand". He's acknowledging that

the white men perceive the native indians to be dumb and

savage, like wild animals and not understand why a man

would want to advance in architecture and technology,

such as thriving cities. The hopelessness is aparent

throughout the text in the tone and mood. The writer is

a native american who mourns the death of the past and

dreads the future for the remaining american indians. He

pretty much states that there is no future, "It matters

little where we pass the rest of our days; there are not

many" and "the whites too, shall pass".  The bitterness

is also aparent throughout the text, along with the

hopelessness. The white men don't appreciate the earth

and it's offerings, nor respect the native indians: "The

earth is not his brother, but his enemy, and when he has

conquered it, he moves on".

2.  The narrator in "The Way to Rainy Mountain" never

saw his grandmother wear her long black hair in anything

but a braid, so when he saw her for the last time

standing beside her bed, topless, and with her hair

"upon her shoulders and against her breasts like a

shawl", he knew inside that he would never see her alive

again. Perhaps deep inside, he knew that something

beside her hair was different. The hair, to me,

represented death because not only was it different, but

long and black, like the black shawls that women in

mourning wear during and after the funerals of loved

ones. Also, he heard her praying until she was out of

breath and then begin again in a cycle of praying and

breathing, therefor exhausting herself. I believe that

the speaker is very respective of his grandmother; her

nudity does not shock him. He feels intuned to her

prayers and although doesn't understand what she is

saying, he understands her feelings and emotions. He

notices the difference of her hair and has an illusion

of her death.

3.  The two authors, Momaday and Seattle, are very

similar in that they both write of the end of existance

or the lack of hope in the future for the tribes of

native americans. Momaday makes it a little more

personal, by speaking in first person narrative and

involving a specific character. However, they are

different in that Momaday ends with less of a depressing

note. The narrator awakes in the morning and rises to

grasshoppers, the hot morning and singing birds. The

gives the reader a visual that is a little less

melodramatic than the ending in Seattle's "Letter...",

which ends with a bitter "But we are savages. The white

man's dreams are hidden from us". Another difference is

that Momaday's narrator experienced things through his

grandmother; all his experiences are second-hand.

Seattle's "Letter..." is a first-hand account of the

speaker's experiences and tribulations.

Message no. 107[Branch from no. 101]
Posted by SELENA EDWARDS RIESS on Wednesday, February 5, 2003 9:13am
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

Hi Anne,

The way you symbolized death with the way Momaday's

grandmother wore her hair the last time Momaday saw her

was a really great observation!!

I like the differences you pointed out between Momaday

and Seattle.  The fact that Momaday's experiences were

secondhand, yet Seattle's were firsthand experiences was

something that escaped my notice.  Also, the way the two

stories ended, one with Momaday getting up to a brand,

new day and Seattle ending his letter on a bitter note

was another great difference!

Selena :o)

Message no. 110[Branch from no. 107]
Posted by ANNE C BAATSTAD on Wednesday, February 5, 2003 2:08pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

Thanks Selena! I was afraid that I wasn't addressing the

questions properly. I love your name!

~Anne

Message no. 111[Branch from no. 101]
Posted by SHERRY M ISLER on Wednesday, February 5, 2003 2:21pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

You have a completly different perception than what I

took on Chief Seattle's letter.  You seem to have taken

it as very dark and negative from his words, where I

take it more as being a prophesy that shall become

reality if things continue to proceed as they have.  I

don't see his persona as hopeless because if he were

truly hopeless, he wouldn't even bother with the letter.

 It is becuase he takes the time and effort to write the

letter, and not just a letter for his own personal

journal, but a letter addressed to the president of the

entire nation in hopes of getting his message across in

order to improve or alter what is happening to his

people.  It's interesting to see a completly different

perspective than the one I had.  :)

Message no. 102[Branch from no. 93]
Posted by SUMMER A SMITH on Tuesday, February 4, 2003 11:21pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1.) The persona in the letter from Chief Seattle to

President Pierce speaks with a tone warped with bitter

resent and blatant sarcasm. His words are so sharp when

reminding his reader that he's cognizant of his supposed

role. The persona reiterates several times - "But we are

savages. The white man's dreams are hidden from

us.(642)" One can almost hear the persona spit as he

speaks so sharply saying to the white man, in so many

words -- "You fool!" The sarcasm is so fierce that I

sense a hint of pity in his tone. The presence of irony

goes without mentioning. The red man's thoughts of the

white men, reciprocate the white man's image of the

Native American as a savage... making this letter a

parody of American history.

2.) Momaday's final image of his grandmother seemed to

have shed light on the distance between, not just

Momaday and his grandmother, but also he and his

family's culture. The grandmother, engaged in a

seemingly ritualistic prayer, speaking her native tongue

in intense ascending measures provided Momaday with what

seemed to be a feeling analogous to culture shock. He

felt unworthy to be in his half-naked grandmother's

presence as she was in prayer. Momaday both lacked

understanding in terms of the language she was speaking,

and in essence, the significance of the prayer. It was

at this point that Momaday realized, "I think I knew

then that I should not see her again." It must have been

difficult, if not impossible, for Momaday to relate to

his grandmother, his culture -- himself, while

witnessing his grandmother in prayer.

3.) The most boldfaced and unavoidable similarity

between Momaday and Seattle, is that they are both

direct descendents of Native-Americans. With that said,

the biggest difference between the two is the two

persona's proximity to their Native-American culture and

tradition. While the source of Seattle's sarcastic

rhetoric in his letter to President Pierce is

undoubtedly the result of years and years of caucasion

inflicted oppression. Quite the opposite, Momaday

mentions the oppression of his people only in passing.

Momaday hints at animosity by mentioning military

museums (it's context uses the words "military museum"

as if it has connotations suggesting that Americans are

proud to have imprisioned the natives) and the militious

slaughtering of the buffalo (which is the Kiowas

equivalent of Jesus' crucifiction), but his piece none

the less revolves around Native American culture,

lacking adequate mention of the American oppression that

Seattle considers to be so inexcusable.

These similarities and differences are significant

because while both authors are of the few people in

America that share the blood of our country's truest

natives, they each prioritized their lives, in terms of

tradition, differently; thus, they have different

concerns.

Message no. 108[Branch from no. 102]
Posted by MARK DEVALIANT on Wednesday, February 5, 2003 9:50am
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

A fairly scathing jab at American History. More so for

the fact that it is true. But afterall, the victor

writes the history.

Message no. 103[Branch from no. 93]
Posted by CARLING ANNE MARTIN on Tuesday, February 4, 2003 11:36pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

Questions for Class Discussion:  1. Describe the persona

of the writer of the letter from Chief Seattle to

President Pierce. Supply examples from the text that

demonstrate your ideas.

Chief Seattle’s persona is one of contempt for the white

man.  He is proud of his land and his people but humble

in his writing to the President.  He repeats the line,

“But perhaps it is because the red man is a savage and

does not understand.”(641,642) over and over every time

he makes a remark that criticizes the white man’s way of

life.  This line is a sort of mockery of the white man,

proving that the Indians were not as unintelligent as

they(white men) initially assumed. The Indians realized

that the white man thought they were “savage beasts”.

Chief Seattle represents the American Indians and thier

stand on the colonization of North America.  The Indians

felt that the white man took the land for granted and

was truly wastefull.  They did not understand how it

could be thier dream to cover it with these new

inventions and kill off the wild life.

2. Consider N. Scott Momaday’s final image of his

grandmother (150). What does her image suggest? What

does this image illustrate about his relationship with

his grandmother?

Momaday’s final image of his grandmother was one of

admiration.  He speaks of his grandmother as if she was

a strong, beautiful women.  He says that he remembers

her most often in prayer which suggests that she was a

spiritual person.  He said, “I did not speak Kiowa, and

I never understood her prayers, but there was something

inherently sad in the sound, some merest hesitation upon

the syllables of sorrow”.( 180) I think that even though

Momaday doesn’t speak Kiowa, he realized that his

grandmother was perhaps sad because of the fact that her

tribe and people were dying out and that the world was

rapidly changing.  He says that he was watching his

grandmother while she was praying which also proves that

he admired and was awe-inspired by her.

3. Compare and contrast the speakers and their concerns

in Seattle’s letter and Momaday’s personal narrative.

What is significant about their likenesses? What is

significant about their differences?

The speakers in both stories have a real respect for the

natural world. It is important to realize that the

speakers are both American Indians themselves. In

Seatlle’s letter he is adressing a specific, societal

problem of the time period, while Momaday was lookoing

back in retrospect at his ancestors journeys in North

America.  The tone of both of the authors is sad and

mournfull of a lost way of life.  The major difference

here is that Chief Seattle is still trying to preserve

this way of life while Momaday is merely trying to show

the proper respect for the past.

Message no. 104[Branch from no. 93]
Posted by ANGELA-ROSE MANESS on Tuesday, February 4, 2003 11:37pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

After reading "LETTER TO PRESIDENT PIERCE, 1855," the

reader is given a clear picture of what the persona of

the text is like.  The persona appears to be an earthly

man from a great Indian tribe.  The reader can see that

he is in touch with the world through his words.  For

instance, he states, "There is no quiet place in the

white man's cities.  No place to hear the leaves of

spring...The air is precioius to the red man.  For all

things share the same breath--the beasts, the trees, the

man."  This shows his inclination towards mother nature

and his ill outlook on man.   He sees reality and the

true future of our nation, and he is not afraid to speak

his mind.  This is apparent when he is indirectly

talking to the white men and says, "Continue to

contaminate your bed, and you will one night suffocate

in your own waste."  He tells this story with some

sarcasm in his tone because he is a very wise man.  He

knows that "white" men don't like to listen to "red" men

and usually think that Indians are some kind of beasts,

so by speaking sarcastically, he is able to reach his

audience better.  For example, he makes truthful

statements about the white man's demolition of the

environment and then follows them by saying that

"perhaps it is because the red man is a savage and does

not understand."  To me, the persona of this text is a

noble character because he wants to improve the economy

or at least stop the deterioration of it before it gets

too late.  He tells about the present condition of our

nation to make the point that something needs to change.

 Also, he is a very wise man because he can see where

this world is headed.  He knows the fate of the economy

and the reason behind it.  I picture this man garmented

in tribal-oriented clothes, with long black hair, and

dark brown skin.  For some reason, I see him with a

walking stick in his hand telling his story with a sad

smirk of sarcasm on his face, with a sunset picture of

the plains behind him and the urbanized world of the

present in front of him. In N. Scott Momaday's essay

titled "The Way to Rainy Mountain," the speaker presents

images of his grandmother as he remembered her best.

These memories are few in number but intense in imagery.

 He remembers her cooking "at the wood stove," sitting

by a window engaged in beadwork, walking with her cane,

and praying about "hope and suffering."    The most

intense image that is wrapped in detail to make it easy

for the reader to picture is when "she prayed standing

by the side of her bed at night, naked to the waist, the

light of a kerosene lamp moving upon her dark skin.  Her

long, black hair...lay upon her shoulders and against

her breasts like a shawl."  She was praying in her

native Kiowa language, and her tone of voice seemed

melancholy.  From these images and her background, the

reader can see that she stands for the last of the

Kiowas.  She represents faith, beauty, and truth in a

world where these qualities are rarely found.  She

remained true to her culture, a culture that couldn't

last in a conflicting world with the white man.  She

stands for the natural beauty that is inherent in

Indians and for the dying hope of her people.  Also,

from these images, a disconnection in their relationship

is apparent.  She is from one culture, and he is from

another.  He cannot speak or understand the Kiowa

language that she speaks, but he can understand the

meaning behind her words.  He knows her importance, and

he admires her with the utmost respect.  She is his last

connection to the Kiowa world, a world that he is tied

to by blood.  With her passing, he knows that he will

not get to enjoy her culture with her anymore, but he

also knows that she is will remain true in his memory

until the end of his days.  Momaday's narrative and

Seattle's letter are very much alike in some repsects.

They both depict the richness of Indian cultures.  A

beautiful sense of perception can be extracted from the

exquisite imagery that is presented in both the texts.

Plus, they both tell a story about an Indian culture

that is being wiped away from the present.  The speaker

in Momaday's story doesn't view white men as the speaker

in Seattle's story does.  Apparently, Momaday grew up in

a white culture, but Seattle grew up in an Indian

culture.  These contrasting differences account for the

way that both the writers view white men.  Momaday

doesn't really have a problem with them, but Seattle

despises them and believes that they think that "red"

men are savages.  Also, Momaday's story is primarily

concerned with the passing of a woman and her culture.

Seattle's story is primarily concerned with the future

of our environment and the bitter relationship between

whites and indians.  Seattle mocks Americans, and

Momaday is part American.  In addition, these stories

were probably written at very different times in

history, which affects their cultural outlooks.

Message no. 105[Branch from no. 93]
Posted by SHERRY M ISLER on Wednesday, February 5, 2003 12:56am
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1)  Cheif Seattle's persona in the letter to President

Pierce is sarcastic.  But throughout the entirety of the

letter, he speaks with wisdom and truth; seemingly

foreshadowing events to come.  He immidiatly points out

the white man and red man's differences in the beginning

of his letter drawing distinct contrast to their

differences in beliefs and customs.  He expresses his

disapproval by saying "The sight of your cities pains

the eyes of the red man.  But perhaps it is because the

red man is a savage and does not understand."    Cheif

Seattle's wisdom and appreciation for the beauty and

delicacy or nature is refreshing and he uses that very

wisdom and respect for nature as an offense against the

"white man".  "There is no quiet place in the white

man's cities" (641).  His tone/persona throughout the

letter is very serious yet sarcastic mocking the

"savage" stereotype ignorantly labeled by white men,

bluntly honest, to the point, and even a sense of

contempt towards President Pierce and the "white man"

but done tactfully with calm collected precision.

Seattle refers to the waste or unapreciation for nature

and the beasts, "If all the beasts were gone, men would

die from great loneliness of spirit, for whatever

happens to the beasts also happens to man" (641).

Seattle's letter also seems to foreshadow the direction

of development and the ill-fated relations yet to come

with the mis-treatment and lack of respect for the red

man.  "It matters little where we pass the rest of our

days; there are not many.  A few more hours, a few more

winters, and none of the children of the great tribes

that once lived on this earth,...will be left to mourn

the graves of a people once as powerful and hopeful as

yours." (641).

2)  Momaday's last image of grandmother Aho suggests she

was an old women with sadness and sorrow in her voice as

she prayed, bare-breasted in the dancing glow of the

lamp.  The nude image portrays a humbleness, a

simplistic sincerity and comfort.    He sees her with

her hair down, "Her long, black hair,...lay upon her

shoulders against her breasts like a shawl" she's

bare-breasted, she's praying in a gentle glow of

light--it's a very peaceful, sincere, humble image with

a mood of sorrow or sadness that equates with the

realization, "I think I knew that I should not see her

again" (180).

3)  Seattle's letter in comparison to Momaday's

narrative is much broader, speaking to a person, (the

president) who represents the white man population of

the nation which although not a personal story in the

sense of referring to a single person like Momaday does

with his grandmother, it is still highly personal and

speaks on behalf of the red man of whom he represents.

Momaday is much more narrowed in his ententions for his

narrative; he narrates to depict a picture of a personal

relationship that is affected by what has occured

(basicly what Seattle foreshadowed to happen).  Momaday

uses a personal relationship to portray his message to

the reader and he caters his writing to a broad audience

whereas Seattle is sending his message to a direct

official.    Both authors are speaking of a very

personal concern and are extremely effective in reaching

the reader; Seattle with his attention-demanding reality

and wisdom, Momaday with his emotional appeal to the

reader.    Personally, I think Chief Seattle's letter is

the best thing we've had to read so far and I really

like every part of his letter--I could go into deep

analysis with his insight, wisdom, foresight, sarcasm,

etc--I think his letter is extremly powerful and

delivers a strong message.  Momaday wasn't as strong of

a message, to me, because he's telling a story of his

grandmother whom he doesn't seem to be that close to for

a gap, (which most likely results from the estrangement

imposed by the white man to reservations, seperations

and programs implimented to "Americanize" and convert

them from their "savage" ways) so I'm not as emotionally

brought into his story as I am in Seattle's.  Both are a

sorrowful reality and insight into the differences and

changes occuring and resulting between the "white man"

and the "red man".

Message no. 112[Branch from no. 105]
Posted by KELLY ANNE PURCELL on Wednesday, February 5, 2003 2:24pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

I like how you pointed out that you could go into deep

analysis with Chief Seattle's Letter.  The letter is

very insightful.  Seattle uses simple ideas, but the

catch is... they arent really that simple.  We have

studied history and know what happened to the Native

Indian people.  Seattle was in the midst of it and saw

the future.  His predictions and enlightenments are

ironic in that the native american people saw the coming

destruction of the natural earth and became one part of

the destruction.

Message no. 109[Branch from no. 93]
Posted by JAMES ANDREW FOGLE on Wednesday, February 5, 2003 12:21pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

In message 93 on Monday, February 3, 2003 2:35pm, Dr.

Suellyn Winkle writes:

>Questions for Class Discussion:

>1.    Describe the persona of the writer of the letter from Chief Seattle to President Pierce.  Supply examples from the text that demonstrate your ideas.

>The persona of the writer of the letter was a concerned Indian, who was worried about losing his land.  He talks about how the white men are wasting his land, and putting up telephone wires everywhere.  He becomes smart in the letter saying that he is probably crazy about being concerned because, "the red man is a savage and does not understand."

>2.    Consider N. Scott Momaday’s final image of his

>grandmother (150). What does her image suggest?  What

>does this image illustrate about his relationship with

>his grandmother?

>The last time that he saw her, she prayed standing by the side of her bed at night, naked to the waist, the light of a kerosene lamp moving upon her dark skin.  She was praying in a high and descending pitch, over and over.  The image of her praying, suggests that she is sad for that she thinks that her culture is changing into something that it wasnt before.  His relationship with his grandmother was that he must of admired her, becuase he sat and watched her pray.

>3.    Compare and contrast the speakers and their concerns in Seattle’s letter and Momaday’s personal narrative.  What is significant about their likenesses?  What is significant about their differences?

>The speakers of the two stories were both writing about some concern that they had over their personal possessions.  One is concerned about their land and the other the main character is concerned about his grandmother.

Message no. 106
Posted by GBATI DJERI on Wednesday, February 5, 2003 12:58am
Subject questions #4

Questions #4 1)     Basically, the author is being sarcastic

about the treatment Indians got from Americans making it

look like it’s was justified because Indians were

thought to be savages in ”But perhaps it is because….not

understand “P641. The author also spent some time

describing the beauties of nature such as buffalos and

focused on the point that whites don’t respect nature

but just use it until exhaustion of its resources.

2)     That image suggests the grandmother’s attachment to

her surrounding and yet her being apart from it. This is

shown by the fact that the author didn’t understand her

prayers for example and yet he could feel her sadness

and sorrow through her words.

3)     Both authors are definitely condemning Whites

attitudes toward Indians explaining how careless they

are concerning nature and its inhabitants. However, what

differs is that Momaday explains his point more smoothly

through her mother’s eyes and experiences whereas the

other one is definitely straightforward and we can

detect a kind of anger standing out of the tone used all

the more so as the letter is addressed to the

president.