Message no

Message no. 33
Posted by Dr. Suellyn Winkle on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 12:26pm
Subject Questions for Class Discussion

Feel free to use your books and to help each other. :-)

1)  How are the people oriented in the cave?  What

direction are they facing?  What can they see?  What can

they not see?

2)What happens when the one who is freed from the cave

comes back to tell the others of about out 'o cave life?

How will they respond to him, according to Plato?

3) Look at the lines that begin, "Better to be the

servant of a poor master..."  Interpret these lines.

What do you think they might mean? (I find this to be a

difficult part in the essay).

Message no. 34[Branch from no. 33]
Posted by JAMES ANDREW FOGLE on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 2:24pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

In message 33 on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 12:26pm,

Dr. Suellyn Winkle writes: Feel free to use your books

and to help each other. :-)

1)  How are the people oriented in the cave?  What

direction are they facing?  What can they see?  What can

they not see?

The people in the cave are facing a wall with a fire at

their backs.  They can see shadows on the wall that are

cast from puppets images through the light of the fire.

They cannot see much more than the shadows on the wall,

since they are stuck in a very dense, dark cave.

2)What happens when the one who is freed from the cave

comes back to tell the others of about out 'o cave life?

How will they respond to him, according to Plato?

When the person comes back from the outside world, the

others cannot comprehend what he has witnessed.  The

world outside of the cave is not understandable to the

people inside of the cave because they do not understand

the reality of what the world is really like.

3) Look at the lines that begin, "Better to be the

servant of a poor master..."  Interpret these lines.

What do you think they might mean? (I find this to be a

difficult part in the essay).

I think that if you are a servant of a poor master than

a servant of a rich master, the poor master will treat

you with more respect because he is on the same level

you are.  Extremely wealthy people are used to being

spoiled with riches, and if you are a servant of a rich

person, you will be doing everything under the sun to

please them.  Also keep in mind that wealthy people are

usually never satisfied.  They tend to always want more

and more money, and they always seem to never be fully

satisfied.

Message no. 35[Branch from no. 33]
Posted by DANIEL T TOTEV on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 2:30pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

here's a scatch of Plato's cave on this website. It

might be helpful.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~loxias/plato/caveframes.htm

Message no. 41[Branch from no. 35]
Posted by MELISSA M RIVELL on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 2:55pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

Thanks for the link...I think it really helped me

understand the essay better. :) How did you find it?

~Melissa~

Message no. 45[Branch from no. 41]
Posted by DANIEL T TOTEV on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:10pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

yahoo, melissa :)

Message no. 36[Branch from no. 33]
Posted by CARLING ANNE MARTIN on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 2:32pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

In message 33 on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 12:26pm,

Dr. Suellyn Winkle writes:

>Feel free to use your books and to help each other. :-)

>1)  How are the people oriented in the cave?  What

>direction are they facing?  What can they see?  What can

>they not see?

 The people in the cave are shackled by thier legs and

necks, so that they cannot move.  They have been in this

cave all of thier lives.  They are facing a wall and

thier is fire above and behind them.  All they can see

are the shadows(of themselves or one another) dancing on

the wall in front of them.  Thier are puppets on a stage

behind them but they cannot see this.

>2)What happens when the one who is freed from the cave

>comes back to tell the others of about out 'o cave life?  They don't understand or can't understand that thier is truth beyond the shadows of the cave.  So when the  one who is freed comes back he is damned and called a fool.  The people in the cave say that if anyone else were to free another being then he shall be sentenced to death.

>How will they respond to him, according to Plato?

>Ansewred above

>3) Look at the lines that begin, "Better to be the

>servant of a poor master..."  Interpret these lines.

>What do you think they might mean? (I find this to be a

>difficult part in the essay).

Now that he has "seen the light" he would rather live as

a poor servant of a poor master than to be honored and

glorified by these people who still live in the

darkness.  This line means that he would rather be on

the same level as his master. He no longer has anything

in common with the people living in the cave, for they

have not seen the truth.

Message no. 37[Branch from no. 33]
Posted by MELISSA M RIVELL on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 2:35pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1)The people in the cave are chained at their necks and

legs and cannot move. They see only what is in front of

them; they cannot turn their heads. They're facing a

wall of the cave. The people can only see the shadows of

images. They cannot see anything very clearly, only the

shadows on the opposite wall.

2)When the freed person comes back from the light, he is

placed in darkness once again. His eyesight will be poor

and he will not be able to see the shadow world as well.

The others will think he has lost his vision and that

leaving their world will cause them to not be able to

see anything that they know. According to Plato, the

others will react by thinking that "it was better to not

even think of ascending" because one would return

"without his eyes". They will fear losing their reality.

3) "Better to be the poor servant of a poor master, and

to endure anything, rather think as they do and live

after their manner."

This quote refers to the learning experiences and

knowledge that one can gain from "[enduring] anything"

rather than living life by following the traditional

path before him/her. It asks to learn through taking

risks and veering from the status quo. It implies that

this will give a better, more fulfilling life. Plato

uses his story "The Allegory of the Cave" to show that

the better life does not mean the easier, more

comfortable one. The hardships met by the freed person

upon returning from the world of light/enlightenment to

the shadow world exemplify the struggles of someone

questioning the world around his/herself and seeing it

in a different way than usual.

Message no. 39[Branch from no. 33]
Posted by ANNE C BAATSTAD on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 2:41pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1) The people in the cave are bound like prisoners, with

"their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move",

"can only see before them", and are unable to turn their

heads to any degree to view whatever may be around

them.What they are unable to see, is what is above and

behind them, which is a fire, a low wall by which men

carrying various objects pass, and the small raised

preferation that separates the fire and the prisoners.

The prisoners, I believe, are facing one of the walls

with the wall, preferation and fire all set behind them.

The only thing that these prisoners are able to see are

their own shadows, the shadows of the objects being

carried and the shadows cast by their fellow prisoners;

all dark things, darker than the darkness that they

already reside in. They cannot see the fire, the wall,

the preferation, who they are talking to, or the men

carrying the objects behind them, and in one instance as

the narrator describes, the "truth".

2) The prisoner who was freed and had the opportunity to

see the "upper world" would have a horrible reaction to

the exchange of the two worlds once he returned to the

cave. He would lack his vision and ability to see the

shadows; he would only see darkness. Upon the occurance

of a contest in which he must compete in measuring

shadows against a prisoner who had yet to have his eyes

exposed to the light of the other world, the freed

prisoner would lose. His fellow prisoners would believe

that the light had caused permanant blindness in his

eyes, therefor making any future ventures too dangerous

and out of the question, even a crime punishable only by

death to the suspect encouraging a prisoner to enter the

upper world.

3)"Better to be the poor servant of a poor master, and

to endure anything, rather than think as they do and

live after their manner".

The speaker would rather know what possiblities existed

despite the perils or hardships than to be oblivious,

naiive, and ignorant to anything that was not yet

experienced, just because it is not what is already

known and accepted. He would rather be the poorest of

the poor (economically speaking) than be poor in a

humanitarian sense.

Message no. 40[Branch from no. 33]
Posted by MARK DEVALIANT on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 2:44pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1. The people in the cave are restrained, physically.

They can move not their legs, nor their heads can they

adjust. Their viewpoint is that of the other side of the

cave. Their world is one of shadows cast on the wall in

front of them by the fire behind them, and the names

they give to these things of shadow.

2. One captive is released into the world. He is shown

the light and his eyes take time to adjust to the light.

He is shown all the things that he has previously heard

and is told their proper names. The world as he knew it

is no longer. As hard as this is for him to believe, he

reluctantly yields to this realisation.

On his return to the cave, now he is aware of the world

that he has up till now been missing, he regrets his

past life. His compatriots think him a fool, that all

that he has seen cannot be. They only think in terms of

what the light did to him. Moving from light to dark,

his eyes take time to readjust. The other prisoners are

led to the conclusion that all the light can do for you

is take your sight away. Any man that would endeavour to

do this for another man, should be "put to death."

3. Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool that

follows him? I think it would probably be better to

learn nothing ("...the poor servant...") from someone

who didn't know ("...of a poor master.") than to learn

foolishness from a blowhard braggart. Is ignorance

better than knowing the wrong truth? Is it not better to

live unaware than beset by tales of things that you know

to be false? After all, you can't miss what you never

had.

Message no. 58[Branch from no. 40]
Posted by JOSHUA DANIEL COWAN on Thursday, January 23, 2003 1:13am
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

Posted by MARK DEVALIANT on Wednesday, January 15, 2003

2:44pm

3. Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool that

follows him? I think it would probably be better to

learn nothing ("...the poor servant...") from someone

who didn't know ("...of a poor master.") than to learn

foolishness from a blowhard braggart. Is ignorance

better than knowing the wrong truth? Is it not better to

live unaware than beset by tales of things that you know

to be false? After all, you can't miss what you never

had.

  Mark poses a very interesting question.  Is it better

to be ignorant or a liar?  Most would say ignorant(at

least the ones with any moral capacity), and I am

iclined to agree with them.  But here's something to

think about: (A little Aesopian proverb I made up;-)

Two men went to the zoo one day.  One of them ignorant,

the other a pathological liar. They walked around

talking; the ignorant man asking questions and the liar,

naturally, lying to him and telling him the wrong

answers.  Eventually they made their way around to the

tiger exhibit.(Can you see where I'm going with this??)

As they watched the cats play with each other through

the super thick glass, the ignorant man asked a

question,"Do you think I could pet one of them?" he said

to the liar.  "Sure.  Of course you could." the liar

replied.  "Just walk right on in there and pet him as if

he were your cat back at home."  And that's just what

the ignorant man did.  He found the keepers' door, which

someone had left surreptitiously unlocked, and

eventually found his way into the exhibit.  Needless to

say, he did not survive the encounter with Sher Khan.

Now, who would you rather be?  The fool?  Or the fool

that followed him?

Just some food for thought...;-

Message no. 42[Branch from no. 33]
Posted by NATALIE A PETERS on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:00pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

About the third time I read Plato's Allegory of the Cave

last night, I finally started to pull things together. I

had never read the story before, and in my

over-analyzing ways, I kept looking too deep into the

story instead of just reading for face value. Once I had

that down, then I started looking for the deeper

meanings that Plato implies throughout.

The prisoners in the cave are fastened together by

chains on their legs and necks. None of these prisoners

has moved in what seems to be a lifetime, maybe their

lifetime. There are fires in front and behind the

prisoners, but far off enough that the prisoners can

only see shadows being thrown against the walls. These

prisoners cannot see any opening to the cave that

encompasses them. Plato shows that time is passed by

telling the reader that these men have been prisoners so

long that light would be blinding and painful to their

eyes.

The freed prisoner has problems adjusting to life

outside of the cave. The pains from not moving for so

long plague him when he is released from the chains. The

bright light pains his eyes, and shows him the realities

of his former life. This prisoner has to make

adjustments to the sights and everyday rituals of the

real world once leaving the cave. Plato shows that this

prisoner is more "at home" with darkness, shadows and

reflections that he is with light and actual objects.

The rest of the prisoners would find him ridiculous

according to Plato. “Would he not be ridiculous?”  The

prisoners would act as if “he came without his eyes; and

that it was better not even to think of ascending…”

“Better to be the poor servant of a poor master, and to

endure anything, rather than think as they do and live

after their manner.” This quote is the overall theme of

Plato’s story to me. It is better to some maybe to not

see the riches; therefore you don’t know what you are

missing out on. The prisoners have never seen the

outside world, so they do not know better than their

cave, chains and fires. The freed slave goes and sees

what he has missed in his life in the real world, so

that if he were to come back to the cave, he would miss

the freedom he once had. The slaves have endured

everything, and they will probably never be put in the

position to think as they do [in the real world] and

live in their manner. The idea that Plato puts in the

readers mind is that you can’t miss what you’ve never

had.

Message no. 43[Branch from no. 33]
Posted by SUMMER A SMITH on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:05pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

I'm a little angry at this point... I was almost

finished answering the questions and I accidently closed

the window. Not only that, I did the same thing last

night while writing my journal. I'm not a happy camper.

1.) The prisoners in the cave are positioned in such a

way that they are unable to move their heads, and they

are unable to see anything but the shadows of real

objects on the wall in which they are facing.

2.) According to Plato, if the freed prisoner comes

back, he would try and lead the prisoners into

reality... outside of the cave, with promises of higher

intellect and clearer preception. At that point, having

the freed prisoner become adapt to the sunlight of the

outside world, he becomes unable to preceive the shadows

as accurately as he once did; furthermore, as accurately

as the prisoners. In other words, the prisoners would

think that the freed prisoner is a fool, and perhaps

even put him to death for trying to pursuade others out

of the cave.

3.) "Better to be the poor servant of a poor master, and

to endure anything, rather than think as they do and

live after their manner?"

This is tough...but I think ultimately it means that...

"ignorance is bliss." In other words, better to serve

and endure under a poor master, than to entertain false

hope of a more fruitful life.

Message no. 44[Branch from no. 33]
Posted by KELLY ANNE PURCELL on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:08pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1)     Since childhood, the people in the cave have had

their legs and necks chained in order to prevent

movement, especially that of turning theirs heads.  They

are far enough underground that the light of the Sun

never hits them and are facing toward the back wall of

the cave, away from the corridor that leads to the

opening.  There is a fire behind them that casts light

and shadows, including the trick shadows of animals that

the “experimenters” are creating.  The prisoners can

hear voices, but think that these voices come from the

shadows on the wall.  The prisoners cannot see the

people making these sounds and conversation and they

cannot see the sticks and stones making the shapes on

the wall.  They cannot very much of anything, as humans

oriented in the open world would know.  Essentially,

what they see is really all that they know. 2) First,

the one who left would not be accustomed to the light

down in the cave.  He would not be able to compete in

their contests about the shadows, and would therefore be

incompetent.  The others in the cave know of nothing

else and would not want to risk their own incompetence,

or even death.  “…the idea of good appears last of all,

and is seen only with an effort…” (Plato, The Norton

Reader, P.1084)  The people who are still chained in the

cave do not know intelligence and are therefore unable

to see. 3)    I believe these lines mean that is better to

have any life than no life at all.  On the scale of the

story, he is saying that he would rather suffer

beatings, famine, and worse, rather than be made to sit

in a cave and stare at a wall for his life.  In that

position, one would not be able pursue any type of

knowledge outside of predicting which shadows were going

to come first.  Since the one who was released knows now

of beauty and infinity, he wants to have the opportunity

to explore.  I also believe Plato is saying that the

person who goes into the light, accepts it and learns

greater knowledge, and uses the greater knowledge to

model his or her life will be happy (this is considering

Socrates definition of happy, which is basically morally

and ethically sound).

Message no. 46[Branch from no. 33]
Posted by ANGELA-ROSE MANESS on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:10pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

     Wow!  I found Plato's story incredibly interesting.

 His philosophical ways of thinking about the world give

the reader something to think about.  After reading "The

Allegory of the Cave," I was left with a brand new

perception of reality because of the light that was shed

on the amazing possibilities of life.  This was my first

time reading the story, and I read it a couple of times

to get a good grasp on its meaning.  In the story, the

people are oriented in a fashion that is facing the cave

wall.  This is symbollically representing the narrow

vision that most people on earth have.  Most people on

earth only see one way.  Their legs and necks are

chained so that they cannot turn their heads or move

their legs.  The chains on the prisoners represent our

cultural ways and perceptions.  Since they are facing

the wall of the cave, they cannot see the fire that is

located behind them, and they cannot see the den's

opening.  This opening is where the light from the

outside world shines through.  The light from the

outside world that is unknown to the prisoners stands

for another reality that can't be perceived by most

people, which may be the true reality in the scheme of

life.  All we can see is what is set before us.  And all

we care to know is what we think is reality.  By setting

this light away from the prisoners' view, Plato is

saying that ordinary people of this earth are like

prisoners who can't even begin to see the light of

reality that holds the knowledge that we seek.  We may

not want to see this reality , or it may just be out of

our reach.        When Plato contemplates what would

happen if "any of them is liberated and compelled

suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk

and look toward the light," he says that that prisoner

will suffer from the intensity of the light, since he is

only used to the darkness.  Plato says that if that man

is exposed to the light then he will want to turn away

from it and "take refuge" in what he knows to be true:

the darkness.  This says that if we are exposed to the

truth, to another reality, then our whole concept of

reality could be killed and another one reborn with

time.  We could be hurt by another reality, but from

Plato's story, the reader can see that this is a chance

worth taking.  Then, if that freed man is taken outside

into the "upper world" and forced to look at the sun

from a very high elevation, Plato states, "When he

approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled and he

will not be able to see anything at all of what are now

called realities."  He says that the man would not like

to look into the light because of the pain that it will

cause him, but overtime, he will eventually become

accustomed to this light.  According to Plato, the other

prisoners in the cave who have never seen the light will

think that the man who did see the light was ridiculous.

 They would think that he lost sight of reality, and

they would say that it is not good to go outside into

the light of this new reality because of the damaging

effects that it could have on you.  Plato goes on to say

that the man who finally got accustomed to the light

would go through any type of suffering to know and see

what he has seen rather than to live in the lie that he

used to live in.        Near the end of the essay, Plato

writes, "Better to be the poor servant of a poor master,

and to endure anything, rather than think as they do and

live after their manner?"  This statement is saying that

it is better to know the true reality of life even if

you are one of the only ones that think that.  Stick to

the truth, the light, and even though you may seem

inferior or poorer than the rest, you know in your heart

that you are much richer in knowledge and truth than the

others that don't believe or ridicule you.

Message no. 47[Branch from no. 33]
Posted by JOSHUA DANIEL COWAN on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:11pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1) The prisoners are chained and manacled so that they

can only face one way.  They are facing one wall of a

cave, where they can only see the shadows of people and

things passing by on the wall behind them.  They cannot

see that these are only shadows of the real thing; for

them, the shadows are what is real.

2)  For one, when the one who was freed is put back into

the cave into his previous circumstances-he is forced

there.  He does not come back to tell the others about

"out o' cave life."  That being said, when the one who

was freed is imprisoned again, his fellow prisoners

scoff at him.  They say that it would have been better

for him not to have ascended at all, as he has lost his

ability to distinguish between the shadows, which is all

that matters to them.  The fact that he(the freed one)

has seen the truth, the "light" as it were, makes no

difference to the other prisoners.  They scorn because

they are ignorant, and do not know the truth.

3)  "Better to be the poor servant of a poor master..."

If one were to take this in the context of the parable,

one would find that it is extremely difficult to

extrapolate the meaning of this statement without

knowing the full quote, as assuredly both Plato and his

student knew.  As it is, the reader has no such

knowledge(unless he/she has a previous understanding of

Homer), and as such is left to go on only what is

written.  In that case, what it is saying is that it is

better to be as one who is not being held back anything

by his master(reality) and to be a nobody than to have

the honor and glories bestowed upon him back in the

prison for winning such contests as are now to him

meaningless in his enlightened state.

Message no. 48[Branch from no. 33]
Posted by SELENA EDWARDS RIESS on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:57pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1)  The people in the cave seem to be in darkness with

little, or no, warmth and conversation.  They are facing

the back wall of the cave, and as a result, can only see

their shadows and the shadows of passing people and

objects that play upon it.  Although there is a fire

blazing in the background, the people cannot see the

light cast by the fire or feel its warmth, plus they are

unable to see the entrance where sunlight shines

through.  Due to their position and chains, the people

are unable to turn their heads and see the men who are

allowed to move about freely in their daily tasks behind

them.

2)  The others are not able to comprehend what the freed

man describes to them about the things he has seen

outside of the cave.  Since the others have not been

able to experience the same sensations the freed one

has, the cave is the only life they know and accept.

Their response to the freed one probably would be along

the lines of being resigned to stay where one's position

is in life.  For them, it is futile to think of going

beyond the cave, for in their mind's eye, they believe

there is no way up from there.

3)  Sometimes it is easier for us to sit back and stay

within what we feel is comfortable, commonly known as

"being in a rut".  To break away from something we do

easily everyday would mean new obstacles for us to

overcome.  By being "the servant of a poor master", it

would seem the master would expect no more from the

servant than what is being given.

Message no. 49[Branch from no. 33]
Posted by DANIEL T TOTEV on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 4:55pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1)     The people are facing a wall in a cave and they can

only see shadows. Their legs and necks are put in irons

so they cannot move. On the other side of the cave is

the fire and between it and the backs of the people is

located the roadway where puppet showmen perform. The

prisoners cannot see the fire or the wood and stone

vessels, statues and figures of animal. They cannot

distinguish between different materials or whether these

animals are alive; they can only see their shadows and

the light thrown by the fire around them. They even

perceive themselves as shadows and they believe that the

echoed voices are the real voices of the shadows. The

language they speak is the same as the one of Plato but

they apply all the terms of this language to shadows.

With this orientation of the people in the cave and

their perception of the world as shadows and voices

resounded by the wall, Plato emphasizes how limited and

sometimes deceptive our senses can be. That is why one

should always be open to new knowledge and one should be

ready to challenge what he thinks is true. Of course,

this is not an easy task: everyone has an innate drive

to refuse what is new and what is different. And Plato

reveals the “sharp pain” of the prisoner who went out of

the cave to see a different world from the one in the

cave. So it is up to us whether we will advance and

accept a truer reality or stay stuck in one place.

2)     When he goes back to the other prisoners they think

he has lost his eyes and probably his mind: they think

that it is “better not to even think of ascending” and

if someone does they will put him to death.  Such

prisoners will mistake appearance for reality. They will

think the dark images they see on the wall were real;

they will know nothing of the real causes of the shadows

and would interpret everything through these murky forms

on the wall. They will rely only on their senses. Here

Plato exposes human stubbornness which sent Galileo to

the stake for his discovery that the Earth goes round

the sun. This obstinacy is instinctive and it always

existed in us and it can also be found in each of us

today.

3)     "Better to be the servant of a poor master, and to

endure anything, rather than think as they do and live

after their manner," will say the prisoner. He already

made the first step which is the most difficult and he

will struggle with the new and different world. And

everyone from the cave can follow him but I doubt it

because they only obtain their information for the world

through their senses and they will not accept something

that contradicts their eyes and ears. That is what Plato

explored in his Divided Line, where sense and images are

least important and reasoning and reason and dialectic

are fundamental. With this allegory, Plato probably asks

us to distrust our senses and be skeptic about what we

have accepted as true even if we have to suffer: it is

better to go through all the hardships of discovering

something new than to be ignorant.

To see Plato’s Divided Line go to:

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/rhatch/HIS-SCI-STUDY-GUIDE/0019_platoDividedLine.html

Message no. 50[Branch from no. 49]
Posted by Dr. Suellyn Winkle on Thursday, January 16, 2003 10:42am
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

Very interesting.  Thanks for the links, David!

Dr. W>

Message no. 51[Branch from no. 33]
Posted by SHERRY M ISLER on Thursday, January 16, 2003 11:27pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1.  The people in the cave are shackled together with

only dim light from the fire that above and behind them.

 Therefor the only images they see are those of the

shadows that are illuminated by the firelight.  They

cannot see the light of day from where they are in the

cave and the darkness they are kept in, not allowed to

move or turn themselves.

2.  According to Plato, the one who is freed from the

cave would "first see the sun and then then reason about

him" and that when he remebered his fellow prisoners and

the habitation that he would pity them and "not care for

such honors and glories, or envy the possessors of

them".  Plato says that the freed man would rather

"...be the poor servant of a poor master" and that he

would rather endure anything so long as not to think as

they do or live like they do.  Plato suggests that after

the freed prisoners return the other prisoners

observation of the effects on the freed prisoner would

lead them to desire nothing of the ascent to the light,

but rather stop anyone who tries to lead another

prisoner to the light.

3.  I think the lines, "Better to be the poor servent of

a poor master..." in this context mean that what they

have is all they know and to try to take them out of the

element they are accustomed to after so many years and

try to put them into a higher element, into the light,

would be of no benefit to them.  But rather be just as

crippling as a wealthy aristocrat suddenly stripped of

all his/her wealth and forced to live a pesants life

scrubbing floors and trying to survive in an element

completely foreign to him/her.  The prisoner is so

unfamiliar and so blinded by what he sees in the light

that he ends up back where he came from.  I interpret it

as being better to be a poor servent of a poor master

rather than say a poor servent of a rich master.  To not

be completly out of your element or in a situation that

is overwhelming and painful or disruptive to what you

are capable or conditioned to.

Message no. 52[Branch from no. 33]
Posted by GBATI DJERI on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 10:41pm
Subject Re: Questions for Class Discussion

1) Those people had their necks and heads chained, were

imprisoned in a den, and had the sun behind them. Their

position were so that they could only see their own and

the other people's shadows. In the same line of

thoughts, whenever someone holding figures of animals

would pass, the prisoners would only be able to see

shadows of those very figures not realizing that shadows

are just a kind of distortion of a real human being or a

physical material like the statues.

2) Concerning the question, the point of Plato is that

the prisoners will be so accustomed to see shadows that

they would automatically refer to them as actual objects

or beings and even name them. As a result, the one freed

would just bring confusion within his old community

since the others will keep considering shadows as their

reality. This would prove how effective the brainwash

endured could close people’s to reality.

3)What was said previously was that those still

imprisoned in the cave world be so used to that false

reality that they would consider believable without

questioning. It’s undeniable that all of us base our

first impressions on our senses; however, such behavior

would be against one of the most important traits of

humans which is curiosity. We must admit that without

this trait we maybe still living in caves, confining our

minds like in the text. In my opinion, the master to

fear is ignorance or the fear of the unknown. On the

contrary, the poor master would be those illusions shown

to septic ones like the prisoner who was freed. I think

we would all prefer be poor servants of poor masters

because in those conditions, the poor servant in spite

of his or her position still has a possibility to escape

from his or her master therefore liberating his or her

mind.